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Clutch for 400bhp


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#1
dave_424

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Hi guys, I have a mk4 golf v6 4motion 2.8 and thought the R32 guys would know more about which clutch for 400bhp which should be around 380ft/lbs ish of torque since it's the 2.8

I'm going to be running a GT35 turbo, my engine code is BDE and I believe I have the DRP 02M gearbox

I'm kind of building on a budget so not looking for an FX850, but don't really want to be changing clutches frequently.

This is going to be a fast road daily driver, I'm not looking to be launching it on a drag strip or road racing/track days with it. Just regular road driving with some roll ons getting into boost.

Can I keep the dual mass flywheel and just get an upgraded friction and pressure plate? or do I have to go to a single mass?

All info appreciated

Thanks

Dave

#2
Lionborg

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Its possible with the Dual mass flywheel, but probably shortening the life is the flywheel with that power.
Personally I started with a spec stage 3+ clutch and flywheel with the 400lbft my car was producing, and it lasted only one month.
Then I went for a Sachs 4puch kit and its a bit more aggressive but it holds on no matter what. Should have taken the Sachs from the beginning
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#3
Lucifer

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Spec is rubbish. If your only aiming for around 400 lb you could get away with a Sachs organic disc and standard DMF. If you want to make sure the clutch lasts a long time and never get any problems get a Sachs sinthered disc with SMF.

820 bhp turbo Mk4 Golf R32. Still wanting more power . 
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#4
Lionborg

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Spec is rubbish. If your only aiming for around 400 lb you could get away with a Sachs organic disc and standard DMF. If you want to make sure the clutch lasts a long time and never get any problems get a Sachs sinthered disc with SMF.


thats the one i use .. very good clutch. a bit agressive for everydag driving, but it can be done :)
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#5
JamesKeane

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I've done just under 10k on my Sachs with similar power. Plenty of track days but no launching. Very happy with it so far. Avoid helix like the plague!

#6
dave_424

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I've done just under 10k on my Sachs with similar power. Plenty of track days but no launching. Very happy with it so far. Avoid helix like the plague!


Which sachs one clutch? the organic one or the paddle one? are you single mass or dual mass and what kind of torque are you producing?

Thanks

Dave

#7
SVK

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Sachs paddle for me with SMF. Rattles at idle I mean you and everyone around the car will hear it lol.
Clutch holds but I hate it in traffic :(

#8
JamesKeane

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Paddle with single mass flywheel. 390lbft. Only time I've experienced difficulty with this clutch is when stuck in stop/start traffic on an incline but that's the sacrifice you make when going with a paddle clutch.

#9
dave_424

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Thanks guys for the replies, very helpful to hear what people think about the sachs paddle clutch. If anyone else with experience with this clutch could give their opinion that would be great.

My thought is to go with the organic disk and pressure plate on my DMF but I don't want to buy twice. Do you guys think the organic one would hold around 380ft/lbs without trouble? If my dual mass fails then I could then get the single mass flywheel.

Or am I just better going for the paddle and be done with it even though all my driving will be on public roads?

#10
Keyser Soze

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I went for Helix with new DMF on my old PD150 Anniversary.
Flywheel was rattling within 3k miles.

#11
JamesKeane

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Clutch change is a big job, usually six hours labour to factor in so it's not something you want to be doing twice. If you're going to end up doing a lot of driving in traffic maybe go with the organic disc on the SMF.

#12
dave_424

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Yeah I can do the clutch change myself however I know it isn't easy and would like to only do it once. Most of my driving will be country roads/town driving so I'm leaning towards the organic disk, as long as it will hold 380ft/lbs, which it should really.

#13
SVK

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Yeah I can do the clutch change myself however I know it isn't easy and would like to only do it once. Most of my driving will be country roads/town driving so I'm leaning towards the organic disk, as long as it will hold 380ft/lbs, which it should really.


Paddle clutch is rated for 440 lb/ft.
Not sure about organic one but if you are planning to have 380 lb/ft torque I would get paddle clutch. 60lb/ft spare is better than no spare torque on organic clutch at all.

#14
farmer

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My spec stage 3 plus seems to be ok it's done a track day and a few few runs up the strip
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#15
dave_424

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Thanks guys, I'm leaning towards the Sachs single mass with paddle clutch which should work good and hopefully not give me any trouble down the line.

One question though, do the paddle clutches wear out faster? what kind of miles have you guys got on the paddle one?

#16
Lucifer

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Paddle clutches will wear out faster and don`t like to be slipped in town traffic to much or your burn the pad surface but they hold more torque then organic discs.

820 bhp turbo Mk4 Golf R32. Still wanting more power . 
MK4/5 Tubular manifolds,down pipes, de-cats,sport cats plus full exhaust system always for sale please PM me for details.


#17
JamesKeane

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My paddle clutch is wearing fine but as said they're rubbish in traffic. You'd be better off saving up for a twin plate organic like the fx850 or Loba of its going to be mostly road use.

#18
craggsy

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You soon learn to almost launch the car from standstill with a paddle clutch. Just not a full bore launch lol


R32 turbo......how did that happen, lol

#19
Lionborg

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Can't really comment on the wearing cause I've only done about 6500 miles with mine.
My mk4 .:R32 turbo build https://www.r32oc.com...tion-r32-turbo/

#20
CorradoR32

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I've done just under 10k on my Sachs with similar power. Plenty of track days but no launching. Very happy with it so far. Avoid helix like the plague!


What's the pedal like, and the smoothness when taking up drive? Any juddering? I've had uprated clutches from America and Helix in the past and they were both terrible. Well, the Helix was OK for holding the torque, but it juddered.

My Edition 30 is making around 340lbft but the clutch can't take it in 4th and 5th, so I need to get one. Are you using a standard DMF with your Sachs?

Ah, just read you've got a paddle one. Do they not do a normal organic friction disc?
Did have: 94 Corrado R32
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#21
JamesKeane

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What's the pedal like, and the smoothness when taking up drive? Any juddering? I've had uprated clutches from America and Helix in the past and they were both terrible. Well, the Helix was OK for holding the torque, but it juddered.

My Edition 30 is making around 340lbft but the clutch can't take it in 4th and 5th, so I need to get one. Are you using a standard DMF with your Sachs?

Ah, just read you've got a paddle one. Do they not do a normal organic friction disc?


Pedal is fine, not much heavier than stock from what I can remember. Being a paddle clutch engagement is very on off but I've got used to it. The only time you'd get judder with it is if you ride the clutch or if stuck in traffic..

I'm using Sachs SMF. There is an organic disc available but I didn't want to take a chance on it as my torque levels are very close to it's stated limit and I put it through lots of abuse at the track..

I'd look into an organic disc to use with standard DMF for your application. Presume your signed up to mk5golfgti forum... What's the general consensus over there?

#22
CorradoR32

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I take it yours isn't a daily? Mine is, and mostly in traffic, so a snatchy and juddery clutch is a no no. I'll look into the organic option, cheers.

I am signed up to the MK5GTI forum but I steer clear of it. It's nowhere near as good as this forum.
Did have: 94 Corrado R32
Now have: 2003 Golf R32
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#23
JamesKeane

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Not quite a daily, but it gets used very regularly. Although it very rarely see's traffic.

The only reason I'd suggest going by that forum is it will have the most model specific advice.

When I purchased the helix clutch, that very shortly disintegrated taking out my gearbox with it, I was going by advice from other forums. Lots of happy helix customers but all with different cars..

It wasn't until after I was in trouble that I got advice from owners on this forum. Helix obviously make great clutches, they just seem to be rubbish in R32's specifically..

#24
CorradoR32

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Thanks mate.

I have been trawling around the GTI forums this morning and the Helix seems slightly more popular than the Sachs, as it's apparently lighter in traffic, and not as juddery.

I also Spoke to Stealth Racing and they said the Helix with stock DMF is a really good combo, and they've never had any problems with them.

So looks like I'm Helixing it then!
Did have: 94 Corrado R32
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#25
youngsyp

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For what it's worth I had a Helix (organic disc with 'uprated cover') on my Pulsar GTiR that made circa 300lbs/ft of twist. That combination did over 45k miles and when the guy I sold it to stripped it down (after blowing the engine), he said it looked practically new and he reused it with the rebuilt engine that would run more boost. The peddle was definitely heavier (expected with the uprated cover) but, it was still easy to live with as a daily.
I'm not particularly heavy footed but I was still impressed by that wear rate. I think the GTiR clutch is smaller than the Golf equivalent too.

If I were in this situation, I'd be looking at making sure the clutch cover provides the clamping force you need. The disc material is only really pertinent for the abuse you'll give it. Sintered/ paddle discs have better heat management properties for example. If you plan on launching it only the paddle type disc will be suitable. If no launching is planned and/ or, track and road use, the organic disc will work much better and behave like the stock disc but have better longevity.
You should also make sure you fit a new flywheel and bed in the clutch as directed to prevent any juddering issues.

Paul

#26
dave_424

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Thanks for the advice lads, talked to one of the guys from JBS and they are hopefully going to get me a price for a Sachs clutch. This car will be a daily driver for me so I think I'm going to try out the organic clutch, if I make 400bhp the organic clutch is rated for 390+ ft/lbs and I have been told that Sachs are known to under rate their clutches torque rating. I don't see me going over 400ft/lbs but if it starts slipping then I could either take it up with Sachs who I believe have very good customer service or just get the paddle friction plate if I really need it.

What do you guys think?

#27
Toffs

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....I'm kind of building on a budget...

... talked to one of the guys from JBS....

....the organic clutch is rated for 390+ ft/lbs.....
....I don't see me going over 400ft/lbs but if it starts slipping then I could either take it up with Sachs....

What do you guys think?


I think:

Posted Image


I mean, really ?

Dave, I'm sure you're a nice guy & all, but please type: turbo in the R32 search bar, and read the 30 or so peoples UK builds. Learn about the good things and bad, the products and/or tuners to go to and avoid. Research.

The Sachs organic clutch lasted me 2K miles (I think?). This is with a smaller GT30 turbo and a fair bit more torque than what you're estimating. I can't believe you're all ready planning on 'taking it up with Sachs' if the clutch fails because you'd knowingly run it over the specified limit. What sort of person starts planning to fight with suppliers of car bits they haven't bought because they are thinking it might be pushed past the spec in the first place ???????????????????? and then post about planning it on the internet !!!!!!
I mean.... I just.... words fail me :(

PS: Sachs will quite rightly tell you to go away, and with the sort of attitude you show above your going to have such fun with James @ JBS - my goodness, I can't wait for the 'internet tuner shop bashing' thread 6 months from now.


Anyway, torque is really all your interested in (after deciding driving use). So what are your build plans - what exhaust, intake manifold, tuner for mapping etc...

I run stock manifold & a map from TVS (VR6specialists) to give shed loads of torque (more than most) because I love that driving style. I eat gearboxes and break other things regularly, but then it's not my main car and I do 2K miles a year.
I've run a Sachs Paddle clutch with lightened SMF for a few years now, bullet proof (but v low miles done).


The words 'Daily driver' on a DIY VR6 turbo project just scares me, you can't be that naive ? This fun project is going to be unreliable, costly and not for the faint hearted. You absolutely must plan some sort of backup plan for transport to get you to work and back - like a second car you can use or don't need a car at all?

Ok, I hope you go do your research (GT35 on a 2.8, and you want only 400bhp? turbo lag anyone?), I'd look into JBS threads on here too (and you can buy the Sachs clutches straight from Sachs you know?), really take stock of what your trying to do (and the COST!), and maybe, just maybe....
  • SVK likes this
 0-60: 3.7sec                                            BHP: 450-500                        Torque: 700+ Nm                              Fun: Incalculable
gallery_2294_1980_2835.jpg gallery_2294_1980_8853.png gallery_2294_1980_12960.jpg gallery_2294_1980_20971.jpg

 


#28
dave_424

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Dude, calm down. I'm just after some advice about clutches for my proposed setup. I have indeed done many searches here and on the VR6oc forums and read though peoples builds. I have seen what clutches work and ones that don't and decided to head in the Sachs direction.

I don't feel that using the clutch at its rated torque is anything silly and if it fails in an unreasonable amount of time then I do believe that there could be a potential problem with the supplied unit. Anyway enough about that.

Daily driver isn't a problem for me, ive got other cars if the shit hits the fan but would like to have it as my daily if it proves to be reliable. GT35 will be fine, keep the low end torque down to reduce the risk of me breaking stuff and a good amount of headroom if I decide to push for more power.

I have built my own turbo bike engine, 900cc from 125bhp to 225bhp at 1 bar of boost, low compression, converted to fuel injection etc. so I am no novice to this kind of stuff, just need a bit or guidance about the specifics of these cars.

I thought JBS might be able to offer me a price cheaper than elsewhere but from what you say it doesn't sound like it

Tuning will be from United Motorsport, 550cc injectors with their 4" MAF housing and their head spacer.

I think I will just get the paddle one and be done with it.

#29
Toffs

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Good luck
  • James32 likes this
 0-60: 3.7sec                                            BHP: 450-500                        Torque: 700+ Nm                              Fun: Incalculable
gallery_2294_1980_2835.jpg gallery_2294_1980_8853.png gallery_2294_1980_12960.jpg gallery_2294_1980_20971.jpg

 


#30
Joshk

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Where are people ordering the Sachs kit from?

Does anyone have part numbers for:

Sachs Paddle clutch
Sachs organic disc
Sachs sinthered disc
Single Mass flywheel

Just trying to do some research.

I've had a quick google and can't seem to find reputable uk dealer. Just a heap of crappy websites .




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